Full on hc sim please with a wide selection realism and driving aid settings to please those who prefer a more forgiving and / or relaxed racing experience. You can allways turn realism down but never the other way around.

I promised myself not to get into this conversation again buy since you asked directly I will reply one more time and hopefully my point gets across.

I don't understand why people seem to think that you have to have one or the other when it comes to a sim or arcade based game.  I keep saying it, you only need one physics engine and then options for people to configure the game as they please. I say one physics engine/mode so that there isn't this stupid debate about playing in this mode or that mode when comparing times or abilities. Everyone should be bound by the same rules of physics.

The two extreme camps are represented here by Walken (arcade-ish) and RockGod1 (hard core sim).  If you have read Walken's comments his main concern is getting the fastest time regardless if it is done in an extremely unrealistic way.   Where as Rockgod1 wants something that gets as close to real riding and racing as possible.

Though Walken doesn't seem to understand anything I say for whatever reason, my point has always been you if create a good deep sim based game that will please those looking for something with more depth it is easier to then add features that make it more accessible for those looking for an arcade experience then if you were to try and do it the other way around.  The main way to do this is with rider assists and aids.  BUT THESE RIDER ASSISTS AND AIDS SHOULD NEVER ALLOW PLAYERS TO ACT LIKE THEY ARE IN THE MATRIX AND DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS THAT ARE SET FORTH IN THE GAME!!!!!!  I hate this thing of defining modes by different physics such as basic, advanced, sim, extreme..... They should be defined by ability.   Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert. All these modes would have the same physics but the times required to win or be competative in them would change. As the player gets better it would be easier for him to move to the next level becaue he only has to work on going faster.  Where as the current system handicaps people because to go to a different mode they have to relearn a different physics model and that to me is pretty stupid.  When I did my first trackday I started in beginner and learned to ride at that pace. When I reached the limit of that class I simply moved up to the next level.  That's called progression.  Not picking on Walken but he is a perfect example of how the current way handicaps players. It isn't so much that he can't play on the sim mode of MGP'08 it's more that he had put so much effort and time to mastering the basic mode that it's frustrating to have to start over and basically relearn the game just to be competative in any other mode.  And you can't blame him for that.   But at the same time, if he only had one option and that was to learn the one physics mode then it wouldn't be an issue of relearning the game just getting faster.

What aids should do is allow players like Walken who are simply interested in setting fast times to simply focus open throttle, closed throttle, pick a line. The aids should assist so that they don't high-side as much (traction control), endo (auto-braking), auto shift, etc....... but again these aids shouldn't make them be able to achieve impossible and unreasonable lap times. The aids should be realistic also. This thing with linked brakes, or front/rear bias is really stupid.  A player that would use them simply wants to stop the bike, so a braking aid should simply start applying the brakes for the player at and in the most appropriate time.

Like Rockgod1 I think games have moved on and there are already plenty arcade racers out there and a lot of us would like a motorcycle game that actually plays and feels as close to the real thing as the technology will allow.   This doesn't mean making it so difficult that players are contantly falling down because a game will never provide the feedback of the real thing.  But isn't like the fantasy I can slide the rear 180 degrees and not crash stuff either.  SBK'08 and MotoGP 08 are great examples of a game that came real close, but was let down by bad decision making.

The other part of this discussion is what is actually a sim? I hear people call games sims that I think are nothing but arcade games with a lot of feature sets.  And again I have to ask why is it that we gamers have to choose?  I am fortunate as an actual gamer who rides, that I get plently of real life track time but not everyone is in that situation. What I would like is simply a game that I can play where my actual riding knowledge isn't a handicap.  Yes it's just a game but it would be nice to be able to use the game to help improve my riding skills, if nothing more from a mental and visual perspective. 

If you create a game with one physics engine/model, add assists to help those looking for a more simplistic experience  and then add options,feature sets and stats so that gamers and customize the experience to their preference you will have a game than will go a long way to pleasing everyone.  It's really not that hard.  SBK'08 and MGP'08 could have easily been that.  If these two games had more complete feature sets and tracked stats I'd be completely happy with them because the actualphysics model in the advanced modes are almost dead on perfect.  If they made proper adjustments to items like correctr brake power, player profiles, and got rid of the stupid stability rider aid (you should not be able to knee drag in the grass!!!) you'd have two great games.

Is this really too much to ask for? Honestly right now I've just given up, sorry if I offend Steve. But I just get the feeling that despite everything that has been written here and over the past 9 or 10 years of players asking for the same thing, you guys are going to give us what you think we want instead of what we say we want.   Every other type of racing game are advancing forward but bike games are still stuck in the mindset of Super Hang-On.

agreed but I hate the term dumb down.  To offset a realistic physics engine there should simply be realstic rider aids that help those who need it.  But those aids shouldn't be "power ups".  To me the game should encourage and inspire people to put the work in to get better by playing in a proper manner.  Part of riding a motorcycle is balance and if you can't crash it that kind of takes away from the thrill aspect of it.

the question that isn't asked is why do people find sim mode hard or crash prone? The reason is usually because there are trying to override to be competitive. This is were games fail as a whole. The AI is usually so cheap and dirty in single player you have no choice but to override.  The AI should follow the same structure as the game modes and be time based.  The AI should offer a fair challenge in all modes. 

If you had the modes/ai configured like I suggested then gamers could work their way up through the game in a way that was challenging, fun and rewarding, while at the same only needing to learn one way to play the game.  The game should inspire the gamer to put more effort into using the aids less and less.  I mean to to equally skilled players, the one using manual shifting should have an advantage if for no other reason then he has the ability to adapt  and adjust to situations that someone using autoshifting can't.

If the one using autoshift needs more drive out of a corner or something his only option would really be to try and open the throttle more or sooner, thus increasing the likelyhood of a crash. where as the one using manual could choose to run a gear longer or shorter to find the power he is looking for without the added risk of more throttle.

Again not picking on Walken but watching his video about locking the rear at Mugello or whatever that track was, that's a result of him playing in mode that encourages this type of riding.   A better approach would have been as you said to use the rear to setup the bike for corner entrying and then using the throttle and some trail braking with the front brake to get on the line he was trying to get.  but that isn't something he'll ever be able to learn if  games keep rewarding the current type of skill developement.

He may say that he doesn't care about any of that and just want's to go fast.  But the point he'd miss is the simple fact just as easily as he learned a very unrealistic way of going fast, he could learn a realistic way of doing the same thing with the same amount of effort and have the same results.  It only seems harder for him now because he has spent so much time learning the other way.  If the game had punished for locking the rear brake like he does, then he would have tried something else to get the result he was looking for and found the "correct" way to do it.  It is no different than finding good fast lines.

I agree with having a sim experience as a goal, and from there adding optional rider assists to make it less difficult.

But speaking of frustrating, the 100% sim experience should offer the player a good amount of feedback when at the point of departure. It's vital that the rumble function provide an accurate sense of when a crash is about to happen, in addition to visual cues.

Also frustrating is lack of parity between the player's physics and the bot-bike physics. It's extremely annoying trying to play a game on full sim and being outbraked and outturned by AI-bikes-on-rails. This seems to me to be a developer shortcut, where instead of spending the time to make the AI better at higher difficulties, the AI is just given a physics advantage instead.

Well so far everthing you guys have said I pretty much agree with. 

1. The game must move forward not backward

2.  The game must be more successful than the last one.

3.  The game must have a longevity and not a rent before I buy stigma.

4.  The niche must be satisfied.

5.  The solution is make a SIM that can be tweaked towards making it easier for those who are not yet accustomed to the more difficult bit of a SIM.  This will work to satisfy everyone and grow the series.

6.   The sport exists and has for alot longer than the game.  Use it and make it a representation of the sport so it accurately portrays what a rider,team, bike, factory, parts, go through in a season.  Again it is all there use it.