Jun 8, 2009 -- 6:17PM, Caspian Rho wrote:

Admitedly the Climax arcade way isn't either.  But I kind of like the idea of a hi-sim such as GRID.

LOL why do people keep calling Climax's series arcade? they are a fine example of a great balance between sim and arcade,  a hybrid middle ground (main game, not including Extreme, because that is arcade). Grid on the other hand lies more on the arcade side, but is also a hybrid between arcade and simulation (I can see why Steve said that, but it's a car game, surely Climax's series would have been a better example?). Climax's series appeals to many different styles of racing, all that needs doing is to make the simulation side better for the sim fans, give them more options and increase the realism for them. The rest I've already posted elsewhere. It is what Ronin said actually;

Jun 8, 2009 -- 9:13AM, Ronin05 wrote:

I don't understand why people seem to think that you have to have one or the other when it comes to a sim or arcade based game.  I keep saying it, you only need one physics engine and then options for people to configure the game as they please. I say one physics engine/mode so that there isn't this stupid debate about playing in this mode or that mode when comparing times or abilities. Everyone should be bound by the same rules of physics.

This would simplify the whole game, you would only need one leaderboard and as such we can have an overall position by our name in the lobby, which is so important to not only see who is where, but also to compete in moving up the leaderboard. Assists can be turned on or off according to the player's abilities.

gmontalca, a poll would only work if there wasn't so many people who were in the middle, for example I like a bit of sim, not too hardcore, but I also enjoy arcade, so something in between sim and arcade would suit me. My guess is if you did a poll the majority would be somewhere in the middle, which wouldn't tell us anything TBH. Plus you can't get a proper tally as very few who play these games actually post here. Seeing as this game is being made for Xbox 360 and PS3 the developers should go in a few lobbies and ask there as well as forums, that way they would get a much wider view of what people want.

Jun 8, 2009 -- 9:11PM, Mush wrote:

Jun 8, 2009 -- 6:17PM, Caspian Rho wrote:

Admitedly the Climax arcade way isn't either.  But I kind of like the idea of a hi-sim such as GRID.

LOL why do people keep calling Climax's series arcade? they are a fine example of a great balance between sim and arcade,  a hybrid middle ground (main game, not including Extreme, because that is arcade). Grid on the other hand lies more on the arcade side, but is also a hybrid between arcade and simulation (I can see why Steve said that, but it's a car game, surely Climax's series would have been a better example?). Climax's series appeals to many different styles of racing, all that needs doing is to make the simulation side better for the sim fans, give them more options and increase the realism for them. The rest I've already posted elsewhere. It is what Ronin said actually;

Jun 8, 2009 -- 9:13AM, Ronin05 wrote:

 

Well where do I start. First of the Climax games bore absolutely no resemblance to riding a motorcycle or any 2 wheeled apparatus of any sort. The Physics in Climax more closely resembled a Jet ski. The list is long so I will only touch upon the more glaring blunders. If anyone else rides please feel free to chime in on anything I may have missed. First off the rear brake on a Motorcycle is **** and only provides 15-20% of the motorcycle's braking power. With that in mind one would realize how impossible it would be to lock up a way underpowered rear brake and brakeslide through a corner and lets assume you could do that because you have a  20 caliper brake piston made out of adamantium, with brake pads built by super glue, you would lose the rear the moment you start to tip the bike into the corner. Period. These are not dirt bikes you CANNOT put your foot down and force the rear to break traction. If that's your thing go ride dirtbikes or ATVs. Second  point Powersliding. Powersliding is not a way ro turn the bike in . Powersliding for those who don't know is essentially  difting. A sustained drift will run you wide. Powersliding WILL NOT and should not decrease the radius of your turn. Unless of course you live in Bizzaro world where everything is backward. In the Climax series Powersliding was a way  of going faster. In the more real world (ours) Powersliding = loss of traction, loss off traction = slower lap times. Even in sim mode Climax never resembled riding a bike it was just the same old **** Jetski Physics engine with the difficulty ramped up to the nth degree kinda making it like ice racing without the spikes hardly sim. Keep in mind that motorcycles even in the worst conditions  are able to maintain a considerable amount of traction. I can go on and on as to why Climax was not a very good representation of riding  motorcycle but I'm afraid I'll crash the Capcom servers.                                         Having said all that i want to make my stance perfectly clear. I think that some ridiculous full on complicated game will serve no purpose other than to drive people away. On the flip side, if I want to play Need for Speed or Burnout revenge I'll do that. The best solution is to have a physics engine that replicates motorcycle physics as faithfully as possible. then have different levels of difficulty. The physics being more forgiving with each easier difficulty. Now here is where i'm going to piss everyone off. People that like to powerslide need to get over it. There is no substitute for a good sound racing line. Walken Get over it and learn to use the front brake that's what it's there for. RockGod quit being so damn intense. You don't want to make it so ridiculously convoluted that the only people that will play are you , me Curve and DrinkToo, and Ronin on the PS3. Somebody just give Joe a good online game once and for all poor man he's earned it. Finally, this next game whenever it does come out needs to have an individual scoreboard for each difficulty level that way no one has to debate whether someone is faster because they have riding assists. people can stick to there own scoreboards and if they feel adventurous they can try there hand at a different difficulty. If you don't know what I'm talking about go grab a copy of GP08 I'm sure Sven or someone has one laying around. This game needs to exist in the land of Happy Medium but at the end of the day it needs to resemble a motorcycle, not a Jet Ski, not a car , not an atv, not the fantasticar.....A Motorcycle

Now Back to KillZONE 2        

 

 

Jun 9, 2009 -- 10:38AM, Mush wrote:

Jun 9, 2009 -- 12:20AM, WhoDaFunk wrote:

Well where do I start. First of the Climax games bore absolutely no resemblance to riding a motorcycle or any 2 wheeled apparatus of any sort.

The Physics in Climax more closely resembled a Jet ski.

*Speachless*

Unlike SBK and MotoGP 08 all of Climax's series have a combined level of skill, gameplay, speed, control, great physics, legendary online gameplay second to none and the best people online to race with.

Jun 9, 2009 -- 12:20AM, WhoDaFunk wrote:

Powersliding for those who don't know is essentially  difting.

Difting or drifting is a cheesy time trial method that you were a master of, but has nothing to do with the art of powersliding.

Jun 9, 2009 -- 12:20AM, WhoDaFunk wrote:

Finally, this next game whenever it does come out needs to have an individual scoreboard for each difficulty level that way no one has to debate whether someone is faster because they have riding assists.

The beauty of Climax's series was that you had an overall leaderboard position that was shown in the lobby (in 06 and 07 in Ranked Rooms) This gave us a way of competing against each other to move up the leaderboards and there was nothing like beating someone with a higher rank than you, this brings competition, more so than having hidden leaderboards that you can only access from backing out of a lobby and too many leaderboards are very confusing. One leaderboard would bring us this overall ranking that we can proudly display in a lobby.

Milestone took the route of giving us a bike game that was supposed to feel great with a riding style you could relate to in the real world, but ended up slightly boring, so would you say Climax's games were ever boring? Climax gave us so many ways of competing against each other and they understood the aspect of online racing.

 

If Milestone understood more before releasing 08 by injecting the proper features that the climax series had that game would have been a clear cut winner. 

Mush in a number of ways your qoutes are exactly what I think the problem is, and no that isn't an insult.  95% of the problem with SBK08 and MGP08 were the lack of features and options.  I myself thought they did a terrible job in the presentation department.  So people/reviewers used the term "boring" when describing it, despite the fact the actual GAMEPLAY was great and exciting. 

What made the game "boring" or uninviting wasn't the actual physics models of the game but the lack of incentive to put it to use.  Like WhoDaFunk, I've never found anything releastic about any of the Climax games and felt they were just as arcadish as the Namco MotoGP games.  But people loved them because of all of those other features so the flaws of the physics model were over looked.

If Milestone has simply done a better job of adding feature sets SBK08 and MGP08 would have been almost perfect games.  but instead of adding on after SBK08 they basically nuetered MGP08 all to hell.   SBK09 is the same way. Leaderboards and all that is cool but for me they aren't as exciting as head to head racing. When I've found some good players I've had some really great exciting experiences with both SBK08 and MGP08 that easily made me overlook their flaws. I will say it again I think Tourist Trophy is probably one of the worst representations of how motorcycles work in the history of gaming.   But I played it and still play it because it's fun and immersive for what it is.   Even though it seems like a tech demo and has tons of physics flaws it is a very inviting game.

The point is regardless of what Monumentum does they have to package the game as a whole for it to have any chance of success.  they can't skimp and make excuses, (it's our first title, etc......) because the bar has been raised very high and there is a lot of competition for people's spending money.  My biggest concern is that I don't want to see something like Namco did when they added their "sim" mode to their MotoGP games which was basically taking an arcade game and making so that you crashed a lot.  To me I felt like Walken and thought in that mode the point was simply not to fall instead of trying to go fast.

If Milestone wanted to they could have made a patch for SBK08 that would have added features and the game would have rocked.  But they didn't and pretty much did the same thing with SBK09 and I will bet the sales level will be the same and the reviews will be the same.  which is sad because if you look at it both SBK08 and MotoGP 08 have everything most of the sim people are asking for physics wise.  With the only criticism being that lack of a global physic model throughout the game so that everyone regardless of skill level is still basically playing the same game.

If the physics of those two games were taken into account and then the FEATURE SETS of games like Climax's MotoGP games and Tourist Trophy then you'd have one excellent game.  It's not rocket science everything is right there for the company with the brians to do it.   

Jun 9, 2009 -- 11:57AM, Ronin05 wrote:

Mush in a number of ways your qoutes are exactly what I think the problem is, and no that isn't an insult.

No insult taken :)

The problem is we are talking about a game, within games we can break away from the reality and create a bubble from which we can escape to, do things that we couldn't do in real life.

MotoGP is about speed, trying to beat your opponant or team, taking it to the edge and to keep on trying to beat records, this is something that both SBK 08/09 and MotoGP 08 have failed on IMO. I'll explain; what Climax's games have done is to bring us a way of re-creating that speed and competitivness within a game, although not entirely true to life, they do bring thrilling, exciting, skillful close racing and most of all a way to compete against each other through many different ways, whether it be racing, time trials, career mode, all these times go towards one leaderboard, which you have one overall position, you then work your way up the leaderboard to #1 or work your way up at least.

Climax also gave us a central way of setting up the bike, there's no going back to single player if online to do this all of this can be done whereever you are in the game, you can check leaderboards, change the design and basically do everything you need to do without leaving the lobby and most of all we know where we place on the leaderboard and can try and beat that PB over and over, because we know just by looking at our times on the leaderboard what this is.

SBK is just confusing, there's too many difficaulty modes and they are separate, why not bring them all into one game, like Climax did?

On a real bike you use all your senses, touch, hearing, sight and smell, both MotoGP 08 and SBK have omitted touch (rumble) for some reason, there is no feeling, we need feeling to bring us that edge and to feel we are riding a bike, rather than controlling a radio controlled bike.

The game needs to be close to reality, but not so close that it then becomes boring, we need a core game, which is as good as Climax's ones with a simulation mode that simulates what a bike would do.

The game should be exciting, thrilling, on the edge, with a great sense of speed that really feels like you are doing 200MPH.