WhoDaFunk...thanks for the vid!   That does more than anything I can about how you turn a motorcycle!!!   The point we've been trying to make is simply why is wrong to expect a bike game to act like a bike?   I don't want my F1 game to feel like a Rally car.   And I don't want my Rally game to feel like a Touring Car.   So why is it that some seem to think that if you make a bike game at like a bike that's a bad thing?

Steve

like the others this has kind of strayed off topic but as has been one of the main common themes to every topic, people just want options and features.  you stated that you guys have played the current bike games MotoGP08 included.   Even on it's hardest setting MGP08 isn't really difficult to maintain balance with and I haven't heard anyone here say that want something more difficult than that.    It seems when we say sim we are talking about

1. Correct braking dynamics (front is 90% of the stopping power)
2. Realistic steering dynamics: steer with the throttle no the brakes
3. Motorcycle physics: the bikes should act like bikes and not jet skies or spaceships.  Uniform physics mode throughout the whole game
4. Deeper immersion features: put the rumble to use for then when you hit a curb...Bikes are all about feedback
5. Detailed stat tracking, player profiles
6. Detailed configuration options for the bikes: this would include tuning and upgrades
7. Strong online stable online features: leaderboard, rooms, chat, etc........
8. Detailed setup options for the game itself: number of laps, weather, sessions, etc.......

Honestly that quick list basiclly is a good overview of what everyone is asking for from both the sim and arcade perspective.

The main disagreement point is those that want a bike game that doesn't actually try to represent what bikes are supposed to act like.... and those who want their bike games to act like bikes

Jun 9, 2009 -- 5:13PM, Ronin05 wrote:

Since I'm constantly accussed of attacking people, HeyJoe I'd like to ask you as politely as I can, would you find GP2 any less fun if the braking was correct?

No I don't think I would

I'd still enjoy hearing Monumentals views about where they stand, they've played the first build, also why has the question been posed, do they have doubts one way or the other? if so why?

I realise they're supposed to pose the questions

ps

Quote Eugene "Yes we can but there's a reason we don't. Sure you could make the bike go 10000km/h and brake on a postage stamp, you could also make it fly and shoot rockets at your enemies from above, you could be invincible and give yourself -10 seconds off your lap by touching a button. But we don't. These games are modeled on reality and hence should be realistic."

That is NOT what has been suggested, almost as condescending as calling someone a kid to be truthful

Jun 9, 2009 -- 5:36PM, Eugene wrote:

Yes we can but there's a reason we don't. Sure you could make the bike go 10000km/h and brake on a postage stamp, you could also make it fly and shoot rockets at your enemies from above, you could be invincible and give yourself -10 seconds off your lap by touching a button. But we don't. These games are modeled on reality and hence should be realistic.

LOL nice! that would make a great game, but not a MotoGP game. I've always wanted a game where you can ride a motorcycle, get off punch the guy in the head and shoot rockets from your bike, def Xbox Live Arcade material

Mush this is going to definately be one of those things that is subjective...I doubt Climax's physics would have gotten any "better". If anything I think they've gotten worse in the direction of arcadish gameplay.   What I meant by weaker is for on thing how all of Climax's game tilt on the axis.  I don't know what that is based off of but it wasn't motorcycles and you don't have to be a rider to see that. The pivot point on climax's games seems to be the rider and not the contact patch of the tire so their games to me have a pendolum feel that just isn't natural.   That doesn't mean it can't be fun..... but regardless it is wrong.  It's the same with the steering of Tourist Trophy. Point blank it's wrong when put in perspective of what it is supposed to be trying to represent.  Is that game fun?  Yes but it's still wrong.   Like I said would you want to play a F1 game that felt like a Rally car?

What I don't understand is why there seems to be this train of thought that a sim can't be fun.  you can slide a real motorcycle and until all this traction control came in it was great watching those guys do it.  I'm really not one to bitch about game laptimes compared to real life, if for no other reason is that because it's just a game for sure I'd take chances that I'd never do in real life.

I don't buy that people want simple games because the Grand Turismo series is a huge seller that gets more complicated with each version.  I stand by the my statement that no one ever asked Climax or any other company to make a bike game that didn't act like a bike.   All of your bullet points all go back to additional features that could have easily been put into any of Milestones recent games. And really when people compare the Climax games to the Milestone, just as you are currently doing it's these extra features that those game have that makes them prefer the game better. Ironically for whatever stupid reason Milestone seems to remove features with each release.

Yes their take on game setup is extremely deluted, but please tell me which would be easier.....
Having a different physics model/feel for each mode? Or having one physics model throughout the game but having player assists to help people of different skill levels enjoy the game?

Like my example before if Monumentum had one gloabl physics model based off say SBK08 and then had 3 different game levels that were time based but all included the option for player/rider aids, wouldn't it be far easier to progress through the game as you got better than having to learn a new physics model at each level? The goal for basic level is to run a specific time.  When you can run that time you just move to the next level and go for that time.....etc..... and you can't get more progressive then that.  But I truly believe you are handicapping people when they take this route of different physics for different levels.  Despite what anyone thinks you can't learn to ride a bike with training wheels. It doesn't really prepare you for anything.  What's the first thing that happens when you take them off...... you fall off.  so it could be argued that it's kind of a waste of time to use them in the first place as at some point you still have to learn how to balance yourself without them so why not start there?

If you start gamers off in a game without limits, it's really going to be hard to get them to accept any kind of limits when you try to put them in.  On the flipside if I am introduced to those limits in the beginning, I know what I can and can't get away with and then can work my way up to pushing past the limits.  So yeah when I read people saying "i don't want a game that is more concerned with not falling than going fast....."  I have to question the basis for that statement.  Especially if I'm going faster than the person making that statement without even being concerned with falling.  Why because I learned balance first and speed second.  as opposed to speed first and never really balance.   Does that make sense?

I guess the reason I'm talking in circles now is because you and others keep coming back like only an arcade game can be fun and have extra features and sims can only be featureless boring games for tech heads only.   Every bad review for SBK08/MGP08 complained about the same issue and that was a boring gaming experience.  On the flip side I've read these glowing reviews that claim how realistic Climax's games were and I just roll my eyes because they don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.    Again if you enjoy the game and have fun with it great, but don't BS me about how close to the real thing it is when it isn't.

Jun 9, 2009 -- 6:51PM, Ronin05 wrote:

Every bad review for SBK08/MGP08 complained about the same issue and that was a boring gaming experience.

Sometimes a few words say a lot Nail & Head spring to mind.

What does amaze me is how many people were foolish enough to enjoy MGP2, and I was one of those fools for years.

Sorry but I'm wearing my sarcastic helmet this evening