Jun 9, 2009 -- 6:51PM, Ronin05 wrote:

Mush this is going to definately be one of those things that is subjective...I doubt Climax's physics would have gotten any "better". If anything I think they've gotten worse in the direction of arcadish gameplay.   What I meant by weaker is for on thing how all of Climax's game tilt on the axis.  I don't know what that is based off of but it wasn't motorcycles and you don't have to be a rider to see that. The pivot point on climax's games seems to be the rider and not the contact patch of the tire so their games to me have a pendolum feel that just isn't natural.   That doesn't mean it can't be fun..... but regardless it is wrong.  It's the same with the steering of Tourist Trophy. Point blank it's wrong when put in perspective of what it is supposed to be trying to represent.  Is that game fun?  Yes but it's still wrong.   Like I said would you want to play a F1 game that felt like a Rally car?

What I don't understand is why there seems to be this train of thought that a sim can't be fun.  you can slide a real motorcycle and until all this traction control came in it was great watching those guys do it.  I'm really not one to bitch about game laptimes compared to real life, if for no other reason is that because it's just a game for sure I'd take chances that I'd never do in real life.

I don't buy that people want simple games because the Grand Turismo series is a huge seller that gets more complicated with each version.  I stand by the my statement that no one ever asked Climax or any other company to make a bike game that didn't act like a bike.   All of your bullet points all go back to additional features that could have easily been put into any of Milestones recent games. And really when people compare the Climax games to the Milestone, just as you are currently doing it's these extra features that those game have that makes them prefer the game better. Ironically for whatever stupid reason Milestone seems to remove features with each release.

Yes their take on game setup is extremely deluted, but please tell me which would be easier.....
Having a different physics model/feel for each mode? Or having one physics model throughout the game but having player assists to help people of different skill levels enjoy the game?

Like my example before if Monumentum had one gloabl physics model based off say SBK08 and then had 3 different game levels that were time based but all included the option for player/rider aids, wouldn't it be far easier to progress through the game as you got better than having to learn a new physics model at each level? The goal for basic level is to run a specific time.  When you can run that time you just move to the next level and go for that time.....etc..... and you can't get more progressive then that.  But I truly believe you are handicapping people when they take this route of different physics for different levels.  Despite what anyone thinks you can't learn to ride a bike with training wheels. It doesn't really prepare you for anything.  What's the first thing that happens when you take them off...... you fall off.  so it could be argued that it's kind of a waste of time to use them in the first place as at some point you still have to learn how to balance yourself without them so why not start there?

If you start gamers off in a game without limits, it's really going to be hard to get them to accept any kind of limits when you try to put them in.  On the flipside if I am introduced to those limits in the beginning, I know what I can and can't get away with and then can work my way up to pushing past the limits.  So yeah when I read people saying "i don't want a game that is more concerned with not falling than going fast....."  I have to question the basis for that statement.  Especially if I'm going faster than the person making that statement without even being concerned with falling.  Why because I learned balance first and speed second.  as opposed to speed first and never really balance.   Does that make sense?

I guess the reason I'm talking in circles now is because you and others keep coming back like only an arcade game can be fun and have extra features and sims can only be featureless boring games for tech heads only.   Every bad review for SBK08/MGP08 complained about the same issue and that was a boring gaming experience.  On the flip side I've read these glowing reviews that claim how realistic Climax's games were and I just roll my eyes because they don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.    Again if you enjoy the game and have fun with it great, but don't BS me about how close to the real thing it is when it isn't.

Couldn't agree more

How can I post?

In defence of Climax, Climax has made the best ever online MotoGP game. If you don't agree then IMO your a complete moron seriously, sorry.

I don't care about how real someone thinks the game should be as it (gp1&2) emulated MotoGP real enough for my taste...

I really do enjoy sharing my opinion about the Climax series of MotoGP as I tag myself the last remaining Gp1 top ranked players to have an opinion, but that is coming near its end, as I guess people who think that Climax's physics are garbage are turning me away from posting as that is just plain ignorant!

If no one can see the value of Climax's work then you are completely awkward and have no groove at all. I think the turn from Gp1 to Gp2's handling tried to emulate 4 stroke technology and ran away by making the physics faster and faster and less real, but the earlier build of the game was shear brilliants! Nothing has even come close! 

Tell ya what, go get a copy of Gp1 or 2 and get a 1:30:32 On mugello on Gp1 or a 1:22:90 on Gp2 NSR and then I'll be willing to take you some what seriously. Until then its all just a waste of time.. People that have done this all agree, bar none, across the board! 

Infact, I will not take any posts seriously unless you own a copy of Gp1 & 2 and realize the brilliants of these titles! If anyone feels the 3rd person view of Climax Gp games are not perfect then there is somerthing seriously wrong in your head! And this has nothing to do with real motorcycle physics as that is apples and oranges! You want to ride for real? Go do it! I just want a game that simulated RC bikes as the Climax series did perfect on Gp1 and 2!

And for the record, I make perfect sense! The reason you may not understand is because of ignorance?

Jun 10, 2009 -- 1:22AM, WALKEN wrote:

 

In defence of Climax, Climax has made the best ever online MotoGP game.

I don't care about how real someone thinks the game should be as it (gp1&2) emulated MotoGP real enough for my taste...

If no one can see the value of Climax's work then you are completely awkward and have no groove at all.  Nothing has even come close! 

amen

Walken dude posts like that is why it's hard to take anything you say seriously and to think you actually accussed people of personal attacks!!! lol

For the record I own all of the Climax MotoGP games, actually I own every motorcycle racing game (non combat) that has been released in the last 12 years.  So like you, I and everyone else are allowed to have an opinion on those games even if they are different than yours.  If you'd take the time to stop ranting and actually read what people wrote you'd see that it has been generally acknowledged that Climax did a great job with the feature sets of their games and is something Milestone, Monumentum or whomever should take a look at.

Your challenge proves nothing because

1. even if it happened to turn out that you were faster, that still doesn't change the fact that all of the Climax games has the basic physics model of motorcycles wrong.  Like it or not, Fun or not you can't argue that because it's a fact.
2. it would come back to the issue of how you like to play the games which we've already seen is very different than how I like to play. Not right or wrong simply different. so there is no point in me ever playing you because I get nothing out of  playing the game like you have it setup.
3. since you seem to think that proof of skills is the only way a person has any validity or merit with opinions, going from the perspect of living in the present and not in the past, in regards to the people posting on this board. When playing head to head with the most recent MotoGP game released you were the 4th fastest of 4 players in all the races run, so uh going by your own logic that kind of makes you the least qualified on how to make a good race game doesn't it

But if you bother to ride this and actually answer the question without ranting I'll ask you the same question I asked Mush.   If you took your favor Climax game be it GP1 & GP2 or whatever and in the beginning kept everything the same except changed the pivot axis so that it was correct and the braking dynamic so that it was correct would you have liked the game any less?  I'm not talking about making the game any harder, difficult, complex or anything like that. just simply changing those two items so that they were based more on how an actual motorcycle behaves would you have liked them any less?   Speaking for myself those two changes would have made me a big fan of the Climax games regardless of if they were considered arcade or sim. I don't see how making a game reasonably correct would make them any less commercially viable or acceptable.

Quote-"But if you bother to ride this and actually answer the question without ranting I'll ask you the same question I asked Mush.   If you took your favor Climax game be it GP1 & GP2 or whatever and in the beginning kept everything the same except changed the pivot axis so that it was correct and the braking dynamic so that it was correct would you have liked the game any less?  I'm not talking about making the game any harder, difficult, complex or anything like that. just simply changing those two items so that they were based more on how an actual motorcycle behaves would you have liked them any less?   Speaking for myself those two changes would have made me a big fan of the Climax games regardless of if they were considered arcade or sim. I don't see how making a game reasonably correct would make them any less commercially viable or acceptable.-Unquote!

To answer the question, I would not like the game at all!

The whole allure of my favorite versions of Climax's GPs (1&2) where/are the way the bike acts/looks in 3rd person view and the braking is perfect for the EXCITING riding style I prefer. Changing these properties would change the basic foot print of the entire game itself.. 

The reason I semi retired from Xbox was because of Gp3 (Climax). Gp3 brought with it a new set of rules which ruined my prefered style along with many others who also prefered this style. It wasn't that Climax wasn't slick enough to allow you to dial the bike in to suit "your" style, it was because you where forced to ride a new front brake style on the Proton using Auto gears and setting them up in a very cheap way by what I would call "Jump shifting"..  This along with NO sim slider and the sim level set at around 25-35% at 0% oppose to what Gp2 was at 0% posed a different challenge that did not suit me as a veteran...

This forced me to buy a $1500 PC to play Gp1 & 2 at Network-Challenge which taught me alot about the over all differences between the Xbox versions of the game, 1/2 and 3... 

Speaking about, as you say, "pivot point" this is where Climax Shines! all other bike games with the acception of GP-Bikes ( an alpha game) ever gotten this correct interms of my Opinion and many others be it fake or real interms of its real world Brother/Sister.

I lost interest in Climax's later builds because of scoreboards not being separated for riding styles. It was my choice if I wanted to dial the bike in with Manual gears (which IMO is a given) a longer wheel base for stability, maybe a smoother gear ratio, so not to spin the tire out under powersliding by making the gears to agressive, and using the Yamaha. BUT! This would never get you even close to the top 10 on the boards which was Bull$hit and pushed me away! Basically you where forced to ride one way to be a challenge to the boards.. A style I could learn and get better at, but a style that I don't like at all, hence why I don't play them!

Capcom's Gp07 brought on this funky style of slaming your front brake to dive into corners fast and forcing your rear brake against the throttle to create the proper line. Some times even lying into the fronts leaving a black line as you can see in my Capcom Gp07 videos... 

This style is completely different than anything yet from previous GPs I've played be it Climax to Namco.. But it also gave me an excited feeling even though it is nothing like real bike physics. I wrote to Capcom about this explaining it to be somewhat of an exploit if you will, and it seems to have been snuffed. Which I really enjoyed that style over the currant Gp08 physics.

Does that somewhat answer your question?