Oct 23, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Andrew wrote:

... But the cockpit in 08 is more like a handicap than a SIM or a difficulty level.

Lets say, you buy a brand new motorcycling game, you put it into your console or PC and because you enjoy so much the SIM play on your previous titles, you go right on and start playing on SIM mode as a rookie rider, now you'd realized that there are only satellite team/bike to choose from, where your bike won't handle so good because you have not the proper top quality parts, also there's only cockpit view, only manual gears, a total FIM regulations, and an accurate factory team/bike/rider A.I. opposition.

?? "is it a handicap, difficult or SIM game" ??. My answer is.. any of the three is incorrect, why?, cause the developers has been misleading the fans into believing that SIM must be a difficult game to play and not as a real sport competition simulation has been reflected into these games.

A lot of people believe that playing in cockpit view and manual gears makes you riding in SIM mode and that would be enough to make it so. I would say no it won't make it so because the basic elements of being a SIM are missing from the game.

Oct 24, 2009 -- 3:56PM, gmontalc wrote:

Oct 24, 2009 -- 2:16AM, Juho wrote:

The GP bikes video looks good but the SBK still looks unplayable to me. Too much camera movement in all conceivable directions.

From a Game point of view "Virtuality" perspective, I agree with that. 

Oct 24, 2009 -- 2:23PM, gog wrote:

Guess what?  Thats what happens in reality. 

From a "Reality" point of view perspective, I agree with that.

But once again "Reality" cannot be compared in the same level of playing a game as a "Virtuality", and for a fact not even in a REAL simulation. These actions are in a different environment, and also when you're riding a real thing you don't see the road or track as same as "a camera lens", is not the same continuously angle of view even if you would have the cam embedded on the middle of your eyes, and also the shaking is not involved either cause your eyes balls are not firmly fixed onto your eyes sockets. So, "Too much camera movement in all conceivable directions" will make you dazed & confused, that's why these "what happens in reality" is "unplayable" in a "Virtual " environment.

These type of good examples are the same I have trying to explain too, that "WE" as players are so brain washed by all these game developers that throughout all these years have taught us and made us believe that playing SIM is the real thing.

Well I sorta agree with ya.   I dont have a problem in helmet cam view except for "look to apex" and "head tilt"(like gp bike's look to apex).  Otherwise, I just think of my real cockpit view and follow the track.  I am used to the view from "reality" so I never have had a need to use a helicopter, chase or ladder view.

The cockpit/helmet view isnt all over the place to a point that it doesnt represent what you see in "reality"..  The bumps are not too much, some tracks are quite bumpy in "reality" even if your eyes absorb some of the shock of a bump.  Your legs, seat and suspension absorb shocks too.  SBK's camera is quite smooth,  maybe too sm00th.

How can you guys make such final judgements w/o playing with us at high levels, online?  If cyclesimming is your passion, thirty bucks doesnt seem outta line to try it out.  I reject the idea that the real cockpit is smooth, steady or static.  SBK is closest to "simulating" what I experience in "reality".

We all know that in simming there's no velocity  no G Force, no slides, no danger....

Last night's online play... We usually wait for the noobs to help them out...

Settings = Extreme or simulation for noobs or practice.

P.S.  IMHO,  if you're not seeing(basically) what you would see in a real cockpit,  you're not simulating racing a motorcycle... period.  Thats why I want laser scanned tracks ASAP.

But once again "Reality" cannot be compared in the same level of playing a game as a "Virtuality", and for a fact not even in a REAL simulation. These actions are in a different environment, and also when you're riding a real thing you don't see the road or track as same as "a camera lens", is not the same continuously angle of view even if you would have the cam embedded on the middle of your eyes, and also the shaking is not involved either cause your eyes balls are not firmly fixed onto your eyes sockets. So, "Too much camera movement in all conceivable directions" will make you dazed & confused, that's why these "what happens in reality" is "unplayable" in a "Virtual " environment.

Exactly right. When driving a real bike you get much more sensory input than the mere visual you are restricted to when playing a game. In car sims the cockpit view feels much more "natural" and playable because of the force feedback lets you feel the car.

Oct 25, 2009 -- 1:57PM, gmontalc wrote:

Oct 24, 2009 -- 9:05PM, gog wrote:

How can you guys make such final judgements w/o playing with us at high levels, online?

In my behalf, who determined such "playing with us at high levels", You or the game itself ?, cause the game itself is not up to my enjoyment, personally I won't expend nothing on something I would not like; But here in this Forum are some people that would give an arm and a leg just for playing "online", or go to XBLA, there those ones will treat you like a "GOD" in heavens. www.xboxliveaddicts.co.uk/ Or go right here someone wants to start a simulation SBK09 league www.xboxliveaddicts.co.uk/forums/index.p...

Dude,  you cant be a fanatical bike sim enthusiast if you dont try everything that is out there.   I mean, if you have opinions about everything, you should have experience with everything  too.   I have tried every virtual thing out there, always I am thinking of my real experience.  Always I am trying to see which one is closest to what I KNOW for real.   So,  I can say with some merit,  what it is that works and doesn not work in the world of simulation.    If you dont try things, at the highest level, how do you know what that level is?

I think we all agree that operating a sim from a chase view is NOT simulation,  no matter the settings.  Can we also agree that spending time on a real bike, with simulation comparisons fon your mind,  helps to further the understanding of what is needed to close the gap between arcade and simulation?

My experience in reality comes from my eyes my ears and my body.  I have paid a lot of attention as to what EXACTLY is going on with speed, gravity, inertia, momentum, resistance, grip, slide, balance and many other points.  I can tell you this:  Nothing has it better than SBK09 so far.   I want MotoGp to follow(or improve!) but I see they have gone the way of console gaming and arcade.. this sucks!

But please, feel free join us at highest simulation levels in a smooth, virtual race experience...  WHat you need is one crappy computer = three hundred bucks  once copy SBK09=twenty five bucks  One joystick/pad= fifteen bucks and you internet connection.  I really cant see this being such a big deal to anyone passionate about sim racing...

AH  setups!

There is an issue with setups.   If you play quick race,  they dont seem to apply, but some people swear they do!!!!  If you play "championship" they work and you can work on setups in the pits.  Thats great. 

What I recommend doing is going to "technical advice" and letting the adviser make a race or qualify setting for you.  Then save data.   It's good to make a note of the default settings(on paper!) then you can see the difference in setting sand understand better your base settings.  When you are in a "quick race" you will see "load settings".  You can load them there but only after exiting the menu and re-entering...crazy indeed. I want to throw a pie on the face of the menu designer. Big thumping nosies and insane layout...arrrrgh.

We play championship when there are enough people to justify it.   Mostly we dont because you cant see the game in main menu so most people wont surf that menu to check,  another stupid menu feature..arrgh!

Dont forget that chase view = 3-4 seconds a lap faster than cockpit.. we cant figure it out because we have some cockpit people who cannot match their times  when they use chase views,  they're slower in cockpit...  hard to understand.  I've never done a lap in chase view so I dont know except I cannot seem to match chase view performance.

My Personal Best  in Phillips Island Extreme settings forced cockpit is -131.132

I really hope to see some of you guys in both game/sims.  We play forced cockpit(not just helmet cam) and mostly to help each other to get fast as a group.  Everyone is helping each other with tips, suggestions, hardware/software etc.  We have teamspeak and all are welcome. So far,  there are people from Croatia, Austria, France, England, Germany, USA, Canada and a few who have never come on the message board or TS so we dont know where they are. Someday we'll have an entire grid of people in the cockpit!  Next time we have 8 people racing well I'll make a vid for ya.

Leme know if you got some results.