Oct 30, 2009 -- 2:03PM, Andrew wrote:

Thanks steve,

Steve I can't beleive you haven't gone insane from all of us yet! You're a more patient man than me...

+1

This is a fantastic example of reality.....  dont we all want to see what it's like from the rider's POV?

If not, then we are stuck with arcade for how long?  How long are people going to be happy with views from the older games?  When do people start demanding a little more realism?   When I see computer nerds/geniuses deciding racing game factors based on "slippyness" and arbitrary and unrealistic sliding and,  having zero motorcycle seat time... I'm worried.

I am also worried that people using arcade views are accepting the crappy views and lamer physics because the passion for recreating what we see is subverted by shortcuts and arcade settings...

The "sim" part of this series is getting pushed to the back.. it should be in the forefront and should be heralded as the apex of the series... yet default settings are on chase view and difficulties are all mixed together as if learning how to do it like the real riders is a secondary thought and not even rewarded as top spot on the podium...sigh.

I'd say it's rider's view.   I use the view I'd see from iside my helmet. Helmet cam. Thats about as cclose to "simulating" riding a bike as we can get... for now. When you ride a real bike,  this is close to what you see.  I understand that people want chase view but thats not too realistic and should NEVER be allowed in a "simulation" situation. .  I am asking for a separation of arcade and sim.  I'll give you an example.  SBK09 mixes chase view with forced cockpit on the points board.  That's just stupid because the onboard is way harder and yet, the person using a camera gets equal points and pays NO penalty for cheating the rider's view out of the experience.

Wouldn't it be nice if chase view included the air physics /resistance that one would feel if one were 5 meters up in the air?  That would, at the least, make it more fair...

Arcade puts the bike as a dot on the center of the screen.  How can you "simulate the experience" of any physics from that POV?   As I have said before,  it's a view NEVER experienced by ANY real rider EVER...  Considering what's involved with steering a real bike,  you couldnt get further from reality then to use chase view, a standing still/ pivot point..ouch.  So, dont be offended but, the mixing of the two is ridiculous,  I am pushing for respectful separation of the two.  After much urging from the real riders(99% me),  SBK09 devos finally offered "forced cockpit".  We are seriously hoping for tilt head and look to apex features.(fingers crossed for SBKX)   You will see a lot more real riders finding it  more natural at that point, if it's ever reached.

Did you see the look to apex video? Not impressed?

Ronin?  What do you think of look to apex and horizon levelling?

You've come up with a solution to the confusion created by no look to apex and horizon levelling.  I applaud you for finding a way.  However,  I really dont get why you wouldn't want to correct what is wrong before claiming that view doesnt matter. I dont see you guys asking the devos for solutions, instead I see complacency and acceptance where demands and refinements should be.

I guess hardcore arcade players want equal footing with simulationists..hehe.  I am going to guess that you dont ride a real bike.   Not saying that you shouldn't have your arcade views but,  if you did ride for real,  you'd be miffed at the setup that allows arcade view to mix with simulation view.

SO... what did you think of the look to apex view?  Do you understand how similar that is to a real view?  Do you care?  hehe.   I played Sturmovik at a major LAN festival in Toronto Canada.  I shot the crap outaa everyone because I used the mouselook with my left had joystick in the right hand and kept them in my sights the entire time.  Rarely did they escape my gun sights.  It was a turkey shoot.   Everyone gathered around me to see how I was doing it. It was forced cockpit so, at least they had that right.  I mean view chasing an airplane from behind  lol.

I had my racing pedals hooked up as THROTTLE =  right pedal - FLAPS = left pedal JOYSTICK = the usual moves and MOUSE was my head... my eyes looking around... free and not stuck with high hat clicks or just left looking forward..lol.  Now they use tracker IR  hehe.

MY point is that looking is important.  Motorcycle is no different.  The arcade players haven't even ask for these upgrades because who needs to look to apex when you're 30 feet behind and up in the air?  Where is the progression from Amiga games from the eighties?  It is no surprise that the simmers are asking for laser scanned tracks,  the arcaders are happy with fantasy because the desire to replicate is secondary.  Thats not bad,  unlesss we mix them together!  If you want your physics(gameplay) corrected,  support the advancement of realism.

We dont RedBull rookies on the podium with MotoGP boys.

Here's an example:  I've always wanted to find the time to fly RC planes... I wouldn't even dare fly without a moving camera in the cockpit.  I couldnt enjoy standing on the ground, looking at a black dot in the sky, when I could be seeing what a pilot would see.  Just my preference.  Wicked!

Adding some arbitrary feature to an online, multiplayer game doesnt a simulator make.  MotoGP08 is already close to being a great, cheap compromise that has the ability to appeal to both.  As someone said earlier, why have it based on motorcycles if there are no motorcycle physics involved?  Fantasy arcade?... that's cool but no reason to call it quits when it comes to refining and advancing the simulation experience.  Not much cost added to allow looking(mouselook, tracker IR or controller axis enabling), tilting the ground(auto even would be nice!) and allowing 3d rider movement... BFD.   It doesnt "cost" much for developers to allow you to switch views or choose collisions etc.  A few lines of code. (scanning is becoming commonplace)

Have you looked at the look to apex vid? You couldnt ride like that if it was made easy to do so?

When you say you dont need look to apex because you have a large TV I just giggle because they are not the same thing at all.  Does it interest you to more accurately see more of what Rossi really sees?  Dont you want the tracks scanned and the cockpit perfected?  Thats not outrageous or prohibitively expensive.  It's not that much to ask really, but we have to ask or we get computer guys deciding physics.  Considering how few people play online now a days, it may be that realism that is the key to success.  Seems to work for iRacing.  

Once again I post this online race with iRacing HD.  When you consider that they keeep ALL stats and standings, and you think of a motorcycle grid with these kind of pro racers... bike racing has a future.   Arcade is looking backwards..imho. Here is a FULL grid with everyone racing with manner and skill.  EVERYONE is in a cockpit and is racing with real drivers on a laser scanned track...  The collisions are on (lol) and the race is recorded for proper league results.  Everyone races under a proper racing code... love it. Just imagine this as bikes!

Not one is chase viewing.