yeah completely true. they aren't listening.

Oh and I forgot to mention this in my above rant.  Gnomatic in a previous post in this topic someone mentioned Forza 3 as a reference point and you pointed out that it was a car game and had nothing to do with the topic.

The point that was trying to be made with the Forza 3 reference is how with car games, they are constantly going forward. Forza and GT aren't even in direct competition with each other because they are exclusive to difference platforms, yet those games are pushing each other in terms of quality of game design, game play and user expirence.    As I've said before this topic of physics and feature sets really doesn't come up much at all when dicsussing car  games because the standard has been long set and that genre is moving forward.   Despite their intentions to reinvent the wheel, I don't think Blur or Split Second are going to be anything but a blip in gaming history, just a gimmick, while console car games will be defined by Forza and GT.

Then you look at bike games and here we are almost 2010 and there still isn't a standard when it comes to a baseline for the genre. In terms of physis or feature sets. In terms of "real physics" the best examples are games that are almost 10years old.  If you are a fan of arcade style games that isn't a problem.  But if you are looking for something more realistic and has high production values then you are out of luck.  One of the main problems is the lack of competition between the any active game at any given time.   As Walken said there wasn't any comp for MGP06.   Likewise there really hasn't been any comp for any of the climax titles.   At least GP500 and the EA SBK briefly had each other to push themselves.    Like it or not the only bike game that actually tried to raise the bar was tourist trophy and that really was just a tech demo.   But instead of looking at Tourist Trophy and asking how to do it better (and you know Forza was always intended to be a GT killer if not in sales but being the standard) everything since has gone back to the arcade style of gaming with lower overall game design standards.   You don't need a huge budget to make a good game if you focus and use your resources wisely.  If Milestone would focus they have everything they need right there and are on the verge of getting it right, but as their car games have the same problems as their bike games, I don't believe they quite understand and until they get some outside point view will continue to make the same mistakes.

I don't get why these companies complain about bike game sales being so low, yet they keep making the same games over and over again.   Why pay focus groups for opinions when you have your target consumer screaming over and over again what they want for free?    If  they build it they will come.  Yet no one is building it.   So no I have no faith in MGP 09/10 being anything other than being some rehash of some version of a climax  MGP game or another.   

For things to get better for me at least it's going to take either someone getting the resources together to build a game for ourselves.  Or it's going to take Polyphony doing a PS3 Tourist Trophy II and inspiring Turn 10 to take them on in the bike game genre also.  Until then it's going to be the same old crap over and over again.  To me MGP08 was a fun game but it could have easily been better.   I'm tired of waiting until next year only to be disappointed.  Tired of just accepting less because that's all that we are given.

Well I'm not taking any offence at all... But even though I hate to fall I did accept the sim challenge and yes you did beat me because my style is different as you say.. I will not make excuses and deny that I suck at sim mode but at least I was man enough to accept the challenge!

But you are not willing to meet me on my terms which is arcade mode which I personally don't think you understand as you feel there are assists turned on when in reality its only that the brakes are stronger and the bike is more stable as it should be and the lines are different as they should be, now we are talking limits not limits inside of limits, Ronin...

So who is the one that took the challenge? Me. Challenge me in arcade on the 250 and see the out come there.. 

Just as WhoDa we raced in sim and he ate me up, but we raced arcade on the 250 and I beat him no problem... He'll admit it!

So basically WhoDa in my book is not a Pu55Y...

If someone is so good at sim they should easily beat an arcade racer.. But I'd love to see you try, :)

In all seriousness Ronin,

IMO, when the first MotoGP was released onto Xbl as a demo it created an element that was only shared amongst PC gamers. 

Playing LIVE against Human's oppose to AI is way better, obviously! Now the main disagreement here is the debate of Sim vs Arcade. MotoGP by Climax has always been an arcade offering. Sim mode on Gp1 or 2 just made the boundaries/limits different. 

Tourist Trophy is the only console Motocycle sim to date, IMO... Gp500 is basically the only Motocycle sim on PC... 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that console games are more arcade.. Yes, there are games like GT/Forza but even those are arcade games reguardless of what fanboys have to say...

Now to express my overall feelings, is that there was an element of fun that Gp1 on Xbl brought to everyone.. It wasn't arcade in a corny sence like Burnout or NFS crap. It offered real world bikes and a real feel interms of the menus or just the overall game itself..

The only thing is that the handling was of its own... An interpretation of what one vison found as fun/real.

There maybe nothing real about MotoGP by Climax other than its overall package, which IMO the overall package being real is very important....

Its the people who are shouting for a simulation, that in a sence are ruining the handling physics as they will never be Simulation on a console! Thats not to say I want a crappy cheese ball arcade MotoGP game with flashy numbers and voice actions at the end of a lap, so on etc... But what I do want is a MotoGP game that is simple, yet hard to master- GP1...

As time went on Climax altered the handling physics making them wishy washy and totally unrealistic... 

By doing this IMO was to cater to people who enjoy simulation.. But this isn't simulation of a real motorcycle, its an interpretation of real world physics gone really bad! Now that makes the game horrible for both party's IMO...

I don't think all the input in the world is going to make MotoGP on console a true blue simulation!

A true MotoGP simulation will come from PC no doubt!

What we will be offered by the Publisher/Developer is what the publisher wants as they are forking the money over, reguardless of what the developers can or can't do.. Its more of what will sell than anything... This is where I focus my attention. My attention is on what was offered years ago that had an balance of fun and reality to a point..

The whole appeal for most of us is to play online and set times to the scoreboards and flex our skills! Tourist Trophy offeres plenty of offline fun for me, but its the lap times and scoreboards that I am smittened by...

I completely understand that you want a full blown MotoGP simulation! But it isn't going to happen, not here! So to not make the game too cheesy, IMO why not make it as real as possible interms of visuals/overall packaging etc, and make the handling fun like it use to be... Slap on scoreboards and voice chat and BAM! 

Your theory is that you seek more to do to fufill your needs hence not falling. The rules considering say Gp08 in Sim mode are simple, (I get it now) Front brake- feather while on the gas through the corners. Wow big deal... You may surprise yourself in the said aided arcade mode.. Theres a alot of things to consided to go fast in either mode. The difference is as I always say (Limits). Now introduce scoreboards to the matter and that will made all the difference in itself.. It will steer those who want the fastest laps to challenges. Once bored will dominating the arcade boards a true lap junky will head over to the sim boards... 

There has always been this battle between the two (sim vs arcade) but I never ever felt that Climax was a simulation to begin with. So $hitty handling is considered simulation to certain people I guess... This is the point. Tourist Trophy in onboard view is great and more of a simulation than any bike game I've played. But the MotoGP series isn't a simulation.. Its a basic fun motorcycle game based on a real world sport.

The thing that erks me is the handling physics don't represent reality at all.. But some people feel that a slippery figity bike is real and IMO its not even close. So why not (if developers are going to continue to %^&* up the handling) have the handling be fun like MotoGP 1 was ????????

At least this way the game has its own value/merit...

Some of you get pissed off that I use Gp1 as a reference point. But truth be told, it offered the best balance of all the Climax titles. The only thing about Gp2 and why its mentioned as the greatest is because of the online play, other than that Gp1 was better, handling wise. 

I don't need Monumental to come out and say "MotoGP09/10 is going to be and arcade game" of course it is! But it doesn't have to be a cartoon cheeseball lame @ss game.. It can be fun and look real and handling nice and get us back to the important feature of human competition by providing us with a simple, yet hard to master game with voice chat and scoreboards. 

Those looking for full blown simulation games, seriously get into PC gaming, consoles are for fun..

Nov 3, 2009 -- 12:08PM, WALKEN wrote:

I completely understand that you want a full blown MotoGP simulation! But it isn't going to happen, not here! So to not make the game too cheesy, IMO why not make it as real as possible interms of visuals/overall packaging etc, and make the handling fun like it use to be... Slap on scoreboards and voice chat and BAM!

Hey Walk,  Why not offer both?  I mean why lowball out the realism?    The apex of the sim should be the closest we have to reality.  Not how much fun it is to stay within the lines but how close to can get to being as good as the real boys.....

You say it wont happen for console?  I tend to agree with you but not for the same reasons!  Getting a passionate, experienced rider between those two computer geeks would be a good start. Raising the bar and making it clear that it's been raised, would be another step in the right direction.  IMO,  it's NOT to be claiming that physics were better 5-10 years ago,  they wern't,  I assure you.

There is a reason that people are demanding and offering laser scanned tracks.  It's because we want to perfect simulation.   We're laggin in the motorcycle world because it's so much harder to simulate than cars.  We're getting there but we must shatter this arcade bs because it's delaying and "lagging" the offerings,  steering them in the direction of the past...ug.

Console or PC,  lets get the apex set so we can enter this corner smoothly and get a great drive for the back straight....

Walken This is pretty pointless because you always continue to completely miss the point. so I'll try to be as brief as possible because it really isn't going to matter

Console vs PC:
Don't agree.  They are just platforms either of which are capable of supporting sim or arcade games. Period that can't be argued.  Whether or not someone decides to put which ever type of game on which platform is a compleley different story.   But your continued statement about this is like saying Macs are for playing and Windows is for work.  Complete BS.  Point blank for me personally, though I have always been multiplatform I prefer consoles because they simply work and I don't have to deal with tech issues that come with PCs in general. when I want to play a game I simply want to start it and play the game and not be a PC tech

Climax GP1 , etc.....
As stated previously and repeatedly, my only problem with your continued GP1 praise is your continued use of the word "realistic" when discribing the gameplay (which you just did again).  If you liked the game and think it's fun great. But it has never been anywhere near real.  Ever.  Not one of the Climax titles.  I liked and still like the Namco MotoGP games for the same reason you liked GP1 because they were just simple fun arcade games. But I have never ever used the term "real" to describe the handling of them even way back then when they first came out.  Fun yes but never real.  I thought it was dumb for them to put in the sim mode because it was completely stupid and terrible and a perfect example of making a game hard just so it could be called "real". If the intent was to try and be "realistic" then they failed miserably

Sim vs Fun:
Again you've never heard me say I want a total realistic sim.   That will never happen and be affordable.  All I have said over and over is I'd like the game to be more accurate of the sport it is supposed to be replicating.   So I want a bike game that handles like a bike game and that means front brake bias not rear brake bias.   Just like you wouldn't want an F1 game where the cars slid around like a rally game.   Realistic doesn't mean hard, boring and bland.  the problem with the sim mode of most bike games is that it is done almost as an afterthought and the results speak for themselves. When I say I want something deeper I simply mean that to me it is about gameplay and not trophy hunting or car/bike collecting. I want a game that will inspire me to keep trying to go faster even after I think I can't get any faster.   Sega Rally 2 is an arcade game that has truly deep gameplay for me because I know I can always get a bit faster.  Tourist Trophy is another that if seeing someone else's fastest time inspires me to pick it up again and reach that level.   As flawed as MGP08 is playing with guys like Whodafunk, Andrew, Pela1 is absolutely fun a hell especially when the battles are close and come down to the last laps.

But your continued dismisal of the sim mode of MGP08 as "not fun and only focused on not falling, blah blah blah...." is baseless to anyone other then you and that seems mainly because you aren't competative in that mode.   But again if my fastest time in Sim is faster then your fastest in arcade what does that say? When I race good players my focus is on racecraft, which is why I prefer (even though its flawed) to play with collisions, because it adds that element to the game. To me that is just as important as simply being fast over one lap.  but even still I'm not the one always calling people out am I?  Which is one of the main reasons why we seem to always be at odds because you are always trying to make grandoise statements or procliamations about something.  When I beat you to me it wasn't about Sim vs Arcade it was about Walken vs Ronin05.   That was it period.  Nothing deeper then that.

Arcade Limits:
You can keep trying to preach it but it doesn't change what the nature of the mode is. It takes more skill to run in the sim mode then in the arcade mode and that again is a fact that you can't argue. But there is no consistancy to your points because it changes depending on what appeals to you. If it appeals to you then it's "realistic, acceptable and fun", but if it doesn't then it's "cheesy, boring and not fun".  If it's all simply about getting around the fastest way possible, why do you harp on cutting, slipstreaming, playing views, etc.....?  So yeah it's a big deal to me if you have unlimited lean angle, stability and braking distance in a game that is supposed to be based on motorcycles.  Bringing the game into the real of reality doesn't mean it can't be fun.

Feature Sets:
This is one that I continuly see people epecially Climax and X360 people blurr and confuse far to often. Feature sets have nothing to do with physics or vice versa.  So when I here people praise the Climax games for being real, but yet all they talk about are feature sets I don't get it.  I ask about handling and they talk about online communities, leaderboards and eveything else.   To me and again I've said it over and over the biggest problem with SBK08/MGP08 were the lack of features.   If those two games had better and deeper online and offline feature sets no one would complain about them as much as they have been.  Like all the other SBK and MGP games you simply are going around a track, but the Milestone games lacked polish and atmosphere that Climax put into their games so people instantly found those games boring.   I can't undestand why after improving the handling of SBK08 in MGP08, Milestone/Capcom choose to dumb down MGP08's options.

As you stated about tourist trophy that game pulls you in.  Why is that game acceptable to you when it's clearly harder to play than MGP08's sim mode is?  Because of all the bells and whistles it has.  your praise of Tourist Trophy kind of defeats your own arguement.  I'm in the same boat, because Tourist Trophy has very serious flaws with it's physics also, but does so much else right that it's easy to over look them.

Like what you like"
My recurring theme.  Like what you like and just enjoy it and don't worry so much of others perception of you.  Nothing you will ever say will make me change the way I view the arcade mode, so why even bother?  I never said anything bad about arcade mode, except it's not something that interest me anymore. if you like it great. I don't big deal because that doesn't change how you feel about the game