Script: /blog/orange.one
Owner:
Subdir: remy77077

    The Tiers of Time (X-post from www.agoners.com)

    Sunday, January 25, 2009, 07:48 PM [General]

    Hey guys. I'm cross-posting from www.agoners.com. Check my main site out for much more...

     

     

    I'm guessing that most readers of this blog will be familiar with a tier listing for a game with matchups and a choice of characters or races with different ability sets. Admittedly this is mainly only fighting games where I've seen this kind of thing happen, but it could be doable for other games too, for example, you could theoretically try to 'tier' the various different Civs for games of Civilization Revolutions, or tier the different characters in Sega Superstars Tennis or many other sports games.

    But in case you aren't familiar at all, the basic idea is to take the very best player(s) with that given character & game, and have them rate their chances against each other character in the game in a theoretical matchup of 'players of equal skill' - in this case, meaning the very best player(s) with that other character also. This rating is generally given as a score out of 10, which is also sometimes seen as a rough guide to the number of wins out of 10 matches that would demonstrate the players are of equal top-tier skills were they to win that amount. The "points scores" are then added up, to give the theoretical 'best characters' in the game, and the weaker ones, and these are often clumped together into groups of characters that are at a similar points score, and these groups are called names like Top/Average/Low etc; hence the use of the name tiers. Please note there is usually plenty of disagreement about the definitions of how to do these points scores, and naturally, even if that can be agreed, things are argued often and tier listings can change over time as new techniques and information come to light about a game. Where the two top players disagree, eg: the top Ryu thinks Ryu is a 6-4 over Guile, but the top Guile player thinks Guile is a 5-5 even match with Ryu, the scores are usually then averaged, so the score will be shown as a 5.5 advantage to Ryu in the table, or +0.5 for Ryu, -0.5 for Guile.

     

    No-one has really tried to put together a SSF2T HDR tier listing yet, partly due to there being no major tournaments with it yet, and also due to the unfortunate bugs in the game, but the latest one for Super Turbo can be found here:

    http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html

    Or pop over to Eventhubs (linked on our side bar) and you can find a lot of decent reasonably up-to-date tier lists, eg. Super TurboSF4 Arcade, and SF3 3S.

     

    Now one thing people tend to forget is that even the tier score listing can give a very poor idea of who's the 'best character' to pick, as the final score is unweighted, and thus assumes all characters are played equally, which is of course not the case. In a tournament setting, how the character fairs against the other (at least perceived) top-tier characters is going to matter more, or for XBL or online play in general, how the character deals with the more popular online characters (such as the shotokan scrubs) or the more lag-friendly characters (such as Dic, Claw and Blanka) may also matter more. So you have to take all of that into account depending on the situation as much as, or even more than the raw number. Again, as I am sure most readers are familiar with, this is what's known as a metagame.

    In a relatively unknown metagame, or in a knock-out type of situation, such as some tournament formats, then a characters 'worst' matchup can matter as much as, if not more than their overall scoring. As also commented very accurately on the New Arcadia link above by NH2, this is what makes Dictator a much better character than his raw numbers, as his worst matchup is still only a '3', meaning you have  at least a reasonable chance against an unknown field in all matchups. 

    For a personal example, both of these factors contribute to why I am now maining, and doing better with Deejay than Guile these days, as I find he is better 'vs the field' in the XBL metagame, and especially, has fewer nightmare matchups for me. It's really only vs Brouki (& maybe Dhalsim) when I feel I have very little chance to win with Deejay.

    character_select__deejay_by_udoncrew

     

    Even if one understands a metagame though, people still get confused with tier lists and what they really mean. Often new players confuse it with characters they find are easy to play with and/or learn. I find a good example on HDR is Bwanka, especially online. He's got a huge throw range, an un-techable throw, some really high priority jumping attacks, a fairly easy crossup, is generally good at aggressive rush-down style of play that's more effective in lag, and super-fast specials that become almost impossible to react to in heavy lag; basically, overall he is a very easy character to play with to an average level, and generally gets better online, hence why he is known as Bwanka to me ;) . I'd even like to use my own play as a good example! I really don't have a clue what I am doing with Bwanka. I'm such a 'n00b' I don't even know how to perform all his moves; the hop-about move is a mystery to me still, as I never really play him seriously ever, yet, using Street Fighter basics, I can get generally decent results with Bwanka despite my huge lack of skill & knowledge with him. I'm equally as weak a player with say, Boxer or Dhalsim, yet I don't do nearly as well with them as I do with Bwanka. Sometimes this ease of play at a low or intermediate play level, is indicative of the same situations at high level play, but here in this example, it really isn't true, as Blanka is generally low-tier overall, yet Boxer and Dhalsim are right at the top. They just have a much steeper learning curve, in my opinion. Blanka maybe relatively easy to play at an average level, but conversely he's actually really difficult to master and win with at the very very top.

     

    But this brings up another interesting point or 'problem' with tier listings like this. They only apply at the very top only. For example Guile is listed as a 6-4 advantage vs Blanka. If I remember correctly, Muteki Guile (probably the best Guile player in the world) actually rated it as an 8-2 advantage to Guile himself. Now at this 'uber-top-pro level', having watched some of their games, I can actually easily believe this score is honestly reflective of what he experiences. 

    The trouble is that tier listing won't mean much for your regular or even perhaps a very very good player in some cases. For example, for me, an above-average Guile (well, perhaps not, but I was at least good enough for top 300 in the first few weeks of HDR, when I was maining Guile almost the whole time in ranked - before the ratings bug hit), playing against an equally skilled above average Blanka is a nightmare. Even though I don't think I'm good enough to accurately rate it as a 10 point score, I'd certainly rate it as a 'large disadvantage' to Guile, so I'd put it as low as a 2-8 probably. Part of the 'proof' is when I switch to another character that I am generally weaker with, know less about, yet find I do better & win more easily against the very same Blanka player.  

    What you'd really need to express this issue into figures, is multiple tier listings based on the skill level of the players involved. This would enable you to see how a character's tier changes as your skill level progresses, effectively demonstrating a characters learning curve, rather than only showing how good that character is at the very peak of that learning curve, which very few people will attain. 

    To do this you'd need an accurate measure of the players skill - the closest thing we have to this would be a players ranked skill score with a particular character. A game would  then need to collect all the stats of who won against who, along with that players 'skill rating', and then only using results where players were of comparable skill to compare to create a matchup chart and thus the tiers. Put that data onto graphs and charts; and you'd be able to see actual learning curves, matchups vs skill rating, and 'top end' character ability displayed graphically. Perhaps it's only me, but personally I'd find that kind of thing absolutely fascinating!  

     

    About the current state of play (and data) with tiers in general though, I'll leave you with this final thought which summarises parts of this article into a great post from Chaghataifrom Capcom Unity, (with corrections and emphasis added):

    The difference between the people is likely* to be greater than the advantage or disadvantage imparted in a matchup. And in any case those listings assume both players know all the counters and counter counters inside out for that matchup.

    Amateurs as a group and usually as individuals are more inconsistent than pros. So what for a pro makes a real difference, to an amature, they may not notice the difference at all.

    It's like expensive golf clubs - indespensible for a pro, but most amateurs wouldn't notice the effect on their game.

    People, don't worry about your matchups too much, just have fun.

    "But Otochun says this match is a disadvantage...."

    Are you Otochun? Is your opponent Daigo?

    No?

    Then don't worry about it.

    Tiers are real in a sense and can be interesting tools to analyze a tournament or whatever, but on a day to day basis, they're nothing to get overly hung up on.

    * I'd personally note this depends a lot on the game itself! I find HDR to be pretty good, and certainly much better in this regard than Super Turbo, due to the rebalancing attempted.  

     

    f_mko

    Of course, if you believe M's infostation, you can pretty much disregard this article. An M-tier listing is very simple, since every character will either win or lose to each other character; it'd obviously be a 50/50 chance.

     

    3.7 (1 Ratings)

    Battle of Destiny

    Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 10:34 AM [General]

    Ah just thought I ought to plug my main blog here again. Not a full cross-post like last time. But I was at the Battle of Destiny in the UK and I wrote up a pre-amble blog here:

     http://agoners.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/the-battle-of-destiny-it-wont-be-for-me/

    and a review after the event here:

    http://agoners.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/bod/

    Cheers!

     

    -Remy77077

     

    4.1 (3 Ratings)

    Hello? ELO??

    Friday, June 27, 2008, 07:49 AM [General]

    On the Super Street Fighter Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix beta test, it maybe my imagination or the effect of the smaller leaderboard, but does appear that your ranked match rating score is slightly less 'variable' rating than the rating system used on Street Fighter 2' Hyper Fighting on XBox Live, ie: it does not go up and down so much with each win/loss, which is good and exactly what I think is needed.

    ELO (or ELO-like) ratings work great for chess, since even if you are just a slightly better player you will almost always beat someone who's a weaker player than you. But Street Fighter, especially online Street Fighter, is just not like that. There is a lot of randomness (although I know that's been reduced in HD Remix), the vagaries of lag, and very important character-matchup based differences - again something that is going to be reduced (hopefully ^_^) but not eliminated in HD Remix.

    You can of course always argue that over large numbers of games played it will cause things to even out. But there is still the frustration caused by this. For example, a high ranked player, who loses on a bad break, on a bad lag to a very low rater player, or who picks just the right character for the matchup - and takes an enormous rating hit for one or more of these reasons. I also believe this is the source of a certain amount of the "plug pulling" and other rating-cheating antics on XBL for SF2HF. Losing can be frustrating to many people - and a rating system like this just exacerbates that.

    MagicTG is another game that uses a similar rating system and that suffers from using it for many of the same reasons, especially due to deck matchup differences being sometimes extreme in that game. But the reason it works ok for Magic is that in general everyone only cares about getting their rating high enough to be "pretty good" - after that, no-one really cares about it as it is all about the highly integrated tournament scene.

    Virtua Fighter 5 is another game that uses a very different, but essentially similar, kind of ratings system. But it takes two BIG steps to avoid the "sudden effect" issue of one match skewing results. 1. Your match result only counts for rating when you play someone close in rating to you and 2. It uses a grouped 'tier' kyu/Dan system, so you have some leeway for wins/losses before your actual visible "rank" changes. Of course VF5 'fails' as there is no easy way to see any actual results of this, actually rather good rating system, instead showing leaderboards based on the practically meaningless "points" score which is mostly just a number-of-games-played experience counter. But perhaps the best bits of the VF5 system could be used for Street Fighter?

     

    Some further ideas to do with Ratings/Rankings:

    It would be possible, and great, if the ratings system took into account the lag factor by reducing the weight of high-ping matches. They'd still count, just not for as much as far as your rating goes.

    Something that's also a problem can be observed very nicely if you checked the HD Remix beta test leaderboards last night (UK time - so about about 14 hours ago now). Top dog 'CigarBoB' (of Ken Medium Shoryuken youtube fame!) was ranked #1 with a record of 37 wins and 0 losses. And he must've beaten a few really good players to get his rating so high too even with the 37 wins, so it's a great achievement; no doubt all those Ken DP juggles helped ;-P... but the trouble is, if our man CigarBoB was a 'ratings wh0re' (although I am sure he isn't!) he'd actually have no reason to play online again unless someone managed to creep past his score. He could theoretically retire now from ranked play and stay #1 potentially for all time! I suppose this depends on how you view the leaderboard thing. It does say its "All Time" and I know there is a "Weekly" ranking option instead, but personally I would like to see the default leaderboard one that's some mixture of the two. There are many solutions to this. Many XBL leaderboards have used "total resets" to resolve it - but this seems ridiculously drastic. I have heard that WoW leaderboards use the concept of "seasons" to break up people's scores. So you forever won a previous 'season', but you have to prove it all again now. But the most simple and effective one I believe, whilst keeping a single leaderboard would be to have everyone's rating slowly drop over time. So if you weren't playing to keep your score up, you'd eventually fall and others would be able to take the top spots.

    A handicap mode would be very interesting too. ie: It automatically does some handicapping (damage levels, starting health.. even frame command input randomness!) based on your comparative rating at the start of a match.

    And what about a "matching" mode where it actually attempted to match you against someone of a comparative rating? Again, Virtua Fighter 5 gives you this option in a very basic manner to search only for matches where people are closely ranked to you, and a game like Halo 3 shows just how far you can go with matchmaking and how much it enhances the online play.

     

    Also posted on my main games blog:

    http://agoners.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/hello-elo/

    4.5 (3 Ratings)

Blog Categories

© 2009 CAPCOM Entertainment. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy | Legal | EULA | TOS Home | Store | Support | Corporate | Press | Mobile | RSS | Status