ok, I know that the bugs are not the result of Sirlin, I apologise if I get that impression.

As for gameplay, what I dont like is

certain characters have throw ranges that are just too great and extend well beyond c.mk range.
block safe moves is another 1.

Yesterday I was playing a blanka player and he did nothing but attempt to go for the throw.  I beat him the 1st round, the 2nd round I deliberatly played sloppy to see what he would do..and thats all he did. 3rd round I tested him again, I threw sonic booms at him and he could not jump over them , plus he didnt know how to block an aeriel attack...I've come across quite a few players who lack even the basic SF skills.

In my opinion this is due to those tick throws being so effective that beginners cant be bothered to learn the basics of the game cos they can win enough games by just perfecting that technique

Also block safe moves, elminate the need for judgement of timing and distance.  Balrog and honda are powerful enough so why do they need moves that are block safe.  And hondas head butt going through fireball is an obvious example of sirlin being bias to his fav character.  If your gonna give a few chracters tremendous new abilities then why not all of them.  Why has guile been so over looked? Also hondas charging throw is rediculas..takes away the skill needed to time and execute it, and if used properly is quite unescapable

are you a guile user?  The guy has 2 special moves period. He still stuggles against characters he struggled against in WW.  The new flash kick was designed to counter slides but in practise it isnt that useful against sliders.  Although I do welcome its new forward mobility, The only bonus really is the over head.

Im sorry that you dont agree but block safe rewards unskilled play, if you do a special move and mistime it then you should be punished for your mistake, landing outside attack range just encourages sloppy playing. If you got comboed every time you mistimed a special move then you would think twice before doing it and that would make you a better player. How can you not agree with that?

There are more and more players online who dont know how to block properly and cant do charging moves without walking backwards, I dont think this is a good practise for somebody who is new to street fighter.

dude, I'll ask you again are you guile user, is he one of ur mains? The new flash kick's only benefit is its greater reach, it does not do the thing that it was supposed to do which was counter characters that have slides.

My guile does not struggle with any other character, its just that guile has no move that is effective against slides so the guile user has to invent strategies to over come that hinderance.

As for block safes, consider this example, im im ryu, ken, sagat, guile and I do a random fierce dragon or flash kick, then I will be complety open and in range for you to deliver a severe combo.  If I chose cammy and do her dragon kick move and you block, then I wont be in range for a severe punishment, the only exception is if cammy is trapped in the corner.

finnally who's whinning>? Cos my opinion differs you yours you insult me? If you dont want to read of opinions that differ from your own then an internet forum is the wrong place for you.  You mention counter, but where did I say that I didnt counter? If I mentioned countering then please show me where, if I didnt then why are you bringing it up?

Infact you have missed the whole point cos you have not properly read what I typed. My issue in this thread was to do with players who dont learn the basics of street fighter.  Why does this concern me, the answer is bcos I like challenging games, I dont like games where I know my opponant cant block upwards so all I have to do to win is jump in or that my opponant will always go for the throw, that does not make a good game.

M, if people are missing your point so bad, don't you think that maybe YOU need to focus on your points a little more? For example, you said this:

Dec 15, 2008 -- 11:21AM, M wrote:

Infact you have missed the whole point cos you have not properly read what I typed. My issue in this thread was to do with players who dont learn the basics of street fighter. Why does this concern me, the answer is bcos I like challenging games, I dont like games where I know my opponant cant block upwards so all I have to do to win is jump in or that my opponant will always go for the throw, that does not make a good game.

Yet, in your five posts on this thread, most of them containing more than one paragraph, you have only written ONE paragraph on the subject that undeniably pertains to what you're saying:

Yesterday I was playing a blanka player and he did nothing but attempt to go for the throw.  I beat him the 1st round, the 2nd round I deliberatly played sloppy to see what he would do..and thats all he did. 3rd round I tested him again, I threw sonic booms at him and he could not jump over them , plus he didnt know how to block an aeriel attack...I've come across quite a few players who lack even the basic SF skills.

Nevermind that your original post doesn't even pertain to this point at all, most of everything else you've written about is how you don't like moves that are safe on block, and you think that throws have too great of range - this relates very vaguely to your original point, being that the game enables people to learn really braindead a.k.a 'scrubby' strategies.

Of course, the funny thing is that you refuted your own point by making an example of a Blanka player who played scrubby against you and LOST, lmao! It would be one thing if you were talking about people who used braindead tactics to BEAT you, but you're not. So, your argument is boiling down to "The thing I don't like about this game is that the people I play aren't very good." That's not a problem inherent to the game - TONS of people play EVERY game like that - findind the easiest way to get the best results. The fact that you're beating people that do this PROVES that these tactics aren't too powerful. Unless, that is, you want to change your argument now?

I will admit, though, that this only exemplifies one of the two things that you think lends itself to scrubbiness; we haven't discussed the other thing - moves that are safe on block.

For one, this is just crazy that you think moves should be regularly unsafe on block. Imagine if every normal move was unsafe on block? That would just reward turtling in general, rather than strategically landing a hit when your opponent is off guard or makes a mistake. That would lend itself to scrubbiness more than anything. Also, there ARE at least SOME moves that are inherently risky and unsafe - like, say, any jumping normal attack. Since you can't block when you jump, there's a big risk to be taken when you jump, ESPECIALLY when you jump towards an opponent, putting them in range to try and beat your jump attack with one of their attacks, which isn't very hard to do.

...But I admit, I'm being a little facetious, as it's easy to deduce that you were talking about SPECIAL MOVES that are unsafe on block - specifically, dashing moves (Balrog rush-punches, Honda Torpedos, Blanka Balls) and anti-air attacks (Shoryukens, Cannon Spikes, Flash Kicks).

So, what's your solution, I wonder? Should every move like this be unsafe on block? Should every move like this be SAFE on block? It's really hard to even tackle this point of yours, because you've only given one concrete example of what you mean...Well, I guess you mentioned that Honda's Jab Torpedo can erase fireballs, but that's irrelevant, because that doesn't have anything to do with it being safe on block, so I'm going to ignore that comment of yours - though I hope bringing it to your attention shows you that you need to stay more focused in what points you're trying to make, since this aspect of Honda has nothing to do with your complaints.

So, let's look at the one example you posted:

As for block safes, consider this example, im im ryu, ken, sagat, guile and I do a random fierce dragon or flash kick, then I will be complety open and in range for you to deliver a severe combo.  If I chose cammy and do her dragon kick move and you block, then I wont be in range for a severe punishment, the only exception is if cammy is trapped in the corner.

I can think of several things wrong with this, like:

1. Sure, if you do a *RANDOM* FIERCE Shoryuken or Flash Kick, you're gonna eat a big combo if it's blocked. That's why you don't do those ones all the time - smaller the SRK or Flash Kick, the safer it is, and I can tell you that Jab SRKs and Tiger Uppercuts are almost entirely safe on block. The solution is simple: Don't use the FIERCE version all the time, because you're asking for it. Also, don't do RANDOM Anti-Air specials. No one does random specials and expects to win - not even Cammy players.

2. You've said at least once or twice in other threads something like "I've been playing this game since WW and there's never been anything like this before, yadda yadda." The funny thing is, in some ways, you're right. Shoryuken's used to be so absurdly unsafe on block that Ryu and Ken were the worst characters in WW. In other ways, you're wrong, though; Cammy's Cannon Spike is a lot easier to punish on block, and even though you can't punish every blocked Anti-Air special with the EXACT SAME THING with every character, that doesn't mean you can't punish it. In fact, Cammy's Cannon Spike has been made LESS safe on block in STHD than it ever was in any iteration of Street Fighter 2, and it's definitely punishable by most characters in the game.

For example, have you ever thought of just throwing a fireball after you block a Cannon Spike? If she tries anything else after it, she'll get hit by the fireball. If she manages to get out her Spin Knuckle in time (I'm not entirely sure if that's possible), you'll have recovered in time to punish her before the Spin Knuckle can hit you. If she blocked, well golly, you guys have both taken one pixel of chip damage! That's an even trade. In fact, in Guile v Cammy (I'll use this example since he's your main), this is a GREAT situation to be in because Cammy needs to close the gap, and you've knocked her really far back now, forcing her to have to try all over again.

So what if Cammy's Anti-Air special is safer on block than others' AA specials? Have you ever thought that maybe this introduces some individuality to the characters? Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, it's not a big deal anyways? Case in point, Cannon Spikes used to be out and out unpunishable, and Cammy was STILL considered the worst character in the game by Americans AND Japanese players.

So, you have to ask yourself, 'just how much did that move matter in the end, if she was still the worst character?' You have to look at a character hollistically. In Guile's case, is Flash Kicks are less safe than most others characters' AA specials, because he can completely zone most characters in the game. Imagine if, on top of that, he could just rush people down and do free Flash Kicks? On the other hand, Cammy's Cannon Spike is a little safer (still not nearly as safe as you think), but her entire gameplan revolves around taking many more risks than Guile has to take. It's a fair trade, and just because you can't punish it in the way that you would ideally punish it doesn't make it completely safe, and it doesn't lend itself to scrubbiness when you have to take a lot of risks just to get into a position to hit someone with a Cannon Spike in the first place (Note: admittedly not true against like, two characters - neither of them being Guile).

Overall, your problems are pretty unfounded. You've proven yourself why tick throws aren't all that effective of a scrubby tactic, and I've gone to great lengths to show you why 'safer' (not completely safe, like you think) anti-air specials on a case-to-case basis are not that big of a deal, and adds to the individuality of the game.

btw..even doing short DP's TU's or FK's can still leave you open to punishment.  Again you said block safes add indivisuality...this is your opinion, me I still think it encourages sloppy and low skill standards.