shotos, top tier in WW? that made me lol hard!  Not an opinion, its fact they sucked.  Even capcom acknowledged they sucked by giving them a ton of buffs in CE.  Guile/sim top, shotos bottom.

skankin..is it you time of the month, is that why you are coming across as so emotional...Calm down dear.  Now join me as I analyse your latest triade.

Wow, I'm rofling my ao over here. What's the point of even making a debate when you just go "Well this is just YOUR opinion and this is just MY opinion"? That circumvents the entire point of debate! Or, maybe in YOUR opinion, it doesn't? Lol. I'm ignoring this, because it's ridiculous. Imagine if someone said that in a presidential debate, or a trial statement. This isn't grade school; debates are always rooted in some sort of opinion, and if you're gonna state yours in a public forum, be ready to get some opposition.

Well thats all you've given me in your titanic responses, you have not actually stated anything that is grounded in fact.  If you cant differenciate between the two, then you will have a hard time debating on any subject.

First of all, whether or not you stated how you dealt with Cannon Spikes is irrelevant.

If it is irrelevant then why did you bring it up? Its seems your pattern here is unstable. You are in essence agreeing with me that i didnt state how I react to cammy move, then you give a whole load of nonsense about how to deal with and then say it is irrelevant. Again if it is so irrelevant why bring it up? Are you double minded or simply confused?

AND it's huge aberration from what you claimed was your argument (i.e that what you dislike about the game are tick throws and moves that are safe on block). If you're going to chastise someone for missing your point, don't miss mine.

Wrong big time.  I said I dont like tick throws and safe on block moves and I stated the reasons why ie, it encourages the player not to learn the basic eg blocking and also encourages sloppy play. You have presented any fact as to why my opinion is invalid.

If you think my argument doesn't pertain to what you've said, then make a better, clearer argument.

How can it be more clear, it is a very simple argument with even simpler parameters.

Your example, where you BEAT this guy who is trying to tick throw the hell out of you wasn't able to beat you by abusing it - this example diffuses your argument big time, because you were able to deal with it with no trouble at all, which implies that while it might be a mindless strategy, it's not overly powerful.

See, now this is where you fall, and a great fall it is at that. My whole point about this guy is that he DIDNT know how to block, but yet knew how to tick throw. Now, howcome he knows one and not the other, the obvious answer is that tick throwing has proven more effective for him, this is why I am of the opinion that the parameters I have stated encourage sloppy play and low standards. What is so hard to understand about that..btw you havent denied it was you. I never said it wasnt mindless or overly powerful so why are factoring that into the equasion, again becuase of your assumptions or because you havnt been bothered to read what I have typed properly. My whole prmise was not about how easy the guy was to beat, but rather his inability to block, a basic componant of street fighter..How can you disagree?

Your original point is, verbatim: "certain characters have throw ranges that are just too great and extend well beyond c.mk range." Tick throws have nothing do with this, and you haven't made any points about this specific statement at all.

Where did I say that tick throws have anything to do with that?  Please post the instance, if you cant then you will again look foolish for assuming what is not there.

Your main beef with this isn't even a problem specific to Street Fighter 2. What it sounds like you're mad about is that people learn the easiest strategy to deal damage and eke out victories without learning the solid foundations of the game. Now tell me: Do you really think that Street Fighter 2 is the only game where you can do that? Hell, you can do that in CHESS, for crying out loud! You can just go for the three move checkmate every time, and it'll work on some people, but there's a possibility that you'll still suck at Chess! Is Chess a bad game for this reason?

Again more foolish assumptions, where did I mention other games? Where did I mention chess? Please post the instance. Yes I think its wrong that there are more and more players who dont bother to leaen the basics of the game, and this, as I have said to before it due to the factors that I have earlier mentioned. People who overly rely on one technoque will not see the true beauty of this game which that every character has multiple techniques that can be adapted to the style of play of your opponant. If you only rely tick throws then how will learn other strategies then may be even more effective. I dont see what you are finding fault in. Do you enjoy playing people you know you can beat by using just one strategy. I have a very effective system for dealing with zangief using guile. Most of the zangief players I come across I beat using this system, however there is one zangief player (gt: phillal or something like) who I have played many times who been able to counter my system and has turned the tables on what was once a comfortable easy win for me.  Isnt that what street fighter is all about skill vs counter skill. Now i will have to work on a new technique to counter his. This is true street figher and I'm sure this what capcom have in mind. How can you argue against this?

The thing is, criticizing a game because people learn to play the game poorly (and that you don't like playing such people) is criticizing something that isn't even a game mechanic - it's a problem with the people you're PLAYING, and EVERY GAME enables a player to do SOMETHING that's easy and powerful, yet equally easy to beat if you're prepaed/your opponent has no other tricks. The reverse is true, too - you can know how to use Blanka's (or anyone's) tick throws very effectively while still knowing the basics and playing them properly, so it's not like you can inevitably ONLY run into people who suck at this game. This is why your argument is weak in proving that throws (what exactly about throws, anyways? You say that throw ranges are too long was your main point, but you've only talked about tick throwing) are too powerful.

The first point in your above paragraph is a fair point, I dont agree with it but I can see the wisdom in your opinion. However, I feel the game rewards sloppy play. Why else would there be so many players who dont know the basics. And this is of consequence to me cos there are more and more players like that. If I dont player people who euqal to me or better then how will I as a player improve?

M - good games last night, (assuming you are Mr Irepressible - shame about the lag, but you're good) but you continue to baffle me on this forum!

I think Skankin has covered it with "it's a problem with the people you're PLAYING".

If someone knows how to tick throw but can't stand block properly, that's their problem and a flaw in how they've learnt to play the game. I know you want to 'blame the game' and say it's the game's fault for making them play this way, but really it isn't. The chess example skakin used is perfect; someone who knows how to do a fool's mate yet doesn't even know how a knight moves is really the equivalent of such a SF player. And yes, I've met chess players like that.

It's quite likely that tick-throwing player has no intention to learn SF2 at all, and just wants to get a few wins as quickly and easily (in terms of their time/skill to learn) to get an Achievement or something, and then will move onto another game. Now if you want to blame Achievement design for encouraging poor play, I'm really going to agree with you there. This game has very average achievement design - mainly a result of letting fans rule the process too much I suspect.

If you want another example rather than chess, let's take me at Gears 2. I don't really know how to play the MP game at all, have never taken the time to learn any of the nuances of team vs team play. Yet I can smoke grenade and chainsaw rush people a bit. It's not great but it's the best I've got and can sometimes get me some spectacular results. I'm pretty much the equivalent of "I can tick-throw but can't even block" player. But just like at SF2 I'll lose to an actually good player almost every single time.

Oh and yeah, shoto's weren't the best in WW. For someone who plays so well, you have pretty poor knowledge of SF2 at times. (And yeah, I have pretty good knowledge for someone who plays so badly! Touche! )

tell me wise one, how does shoto reliably beat sim?  you can't DP sim.  Sure it's invincible, but it's unsafe, not only on block, but even ON HIT.  Sim is much better at zoning than shotos are.   They can't dp sim's limbs cuz they will just get hit right back on recovery.   Sim get's free knockdowns a c.fierce/strong on mid range fb.  And due to lack of reversals in the game, sim can lockdown with tick throw.  only a lucky counter throw can save them.  And EVEN if the tick attempt was so poorly timed and the shoto can dp, sim can still walk in and do another free tick attempt on dp recovery.

DP is only good as AA and that's it.  and sim never jumps.  He doesn't need to.  He can drain you from across the screen.  Hell, sim beats shotos in st as well, still(theres a reason why ryu fake fb was added),  and it is far less lopsided, yet sim is still >>>> shotos in that game.     

DP is only good as AA and that's it. 

Sabre I'm suprised you made such a comment, a skilled ryu/ken will use DP for much more than an AA,

They will use for:

• going through fireballs
• countering throws/slides etc
• as an anti poke weapon
• recovery

Dont belive me then play some of the guys on my friend list, they use DP for these things very very often and is a true display of skill and I've been playing with players like this since around 92-93. Any randon poke will be dragoned for sure

I think the conclusion from WW debate is that we obviously played WW with different samples of ppl, in my sample the dominant players were always ryu/ken and never dhalsim, perhaps for you it was different. But if you think DP is just for anti air then you havnt come across truly skilled ryu/ken/akuma players, and this is what I meant when I said in an earlier thread that the skills displayed by tounements players wernt really that impressive when you've been around players who display these kinda skills. One of the reasons ryu/ken isnt my main is cos I cant utilize a DP reliably for anything but AA.